The Tori Thread

[aermancer]

aaaaaand finally some words of wisdom

how the hell do we know the clips are anomalies? do you have a leaked copy of the album? have you read a review I don't know about? everything I've heard says this album is guitar-heavy. and I never said they can't be good songs. I said they don't match up with these pictures.

don't tell me how to anticipate this album. my life is not riding on it. the beekeeper severely disappointed me at a time when I, like many young, angsty girls, regarded tori amos as my savior, and it did not feel good. by now I've realized that she doesn't not hold all the answers to my problems, and is merely a brilliant artist with an amazing body of work circa 2005. I'm expecting the worst, and hoping for the best. in my opinion, that's a much healthier approach than constantly making excuses for her and being let down.

no more quotes now i promise!

[d.a.walker]

I'm curious with ADP, but only in the fact that it has got people talking about it so much for the wrong/worrying reasons. I'd be the first to admit that my favourite Tori era was around Choirgirl and Venus, such power and emotion behind her, the plugged tour is still one of the most fantastic concerts I have been to, witnessing her play a piano and a keyboard at the same time whilst howling Cruel at the audience with such a fixated stare. I know it's wrong to expect highly of her all the time, but when the highs were so high it's hard to not be a little disappointed by the debacle unfolding in front of us now....

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i thought this was very eloquent and describes some of our feelings quite well.

Not really, I just find it sad to witness the decline of an artist I once very much respected.

I found this article by Bill that I thought was interesting, it's posted below.

"If this were a simple case of switching styles, you wouldn't see backlash like this. Any legitimate artist should be changing and trying new things. Otherwise, the work would become stagnant and forced. I know that when PJ Harvey says that when she starts a new album, her goal is for it to be the complete opposite of the previous one. I think everyone here agrees that this mentality is a good thing, so your point kind of goes unsaid. What we happen to be looking at today with TA is lack of integrity, and it's not something that has sprung up overnight.


Nobody can possibly convince me than when Tori sits down at the piano, her first instinct is to write cheesy pop songs and do Barney's shout-outs. As she's happy to tell you, the woman is a gifted musician with a classical background. Her music, while varying stylistically, has always been structurally unconventional, which fans probably enjoy about her. Listening to a song for the first time, one cannot necessarily guess where it is going to go, which is not true of ordinary four-chord rock/pop songs. This kind of started to not be the case around 2002. And around 1999 Tori kind of started to get a lot less famous. Does that sound like a big coincidence?

Tori is someone whose career has gotten fucked over by the world. Modern rock radio stations that would play Tori (and other women like Jewel, Liz Phair, Fiona Apple, Garbage, etc) in the 90's won't play women today. Or anything that is not of a very specific mold. She got knocked up and returned unplayable. This is on top of record sales that had been declining since 92. She could've accepted her place as a footnote in 90's music history and kept going where she was going (by that I mean making interesting music, not the same sound). She had a very loyal fan base that would follow her pretty much everywhere she would go. She could've enjoyed a career not unlike 90's icons Dave Matthews and Pearl Jam.

But here's the catch. The woman enjoys being famous. Go to The Dent and read some interviews from every year of her career. You'll find her in 92 saying things like, "Well to be honest, I've gotten more press than the queen this year!" You'll find lots of talk of the luxuries she enjoys. Answers like, "of course I have." to questions like, "have you met Elton John?" Go look! It's all there. And let's not forget that she turned what for other musicians is simply getting off the bus and signing things into a degrading freak show. Thusly a long career of respectablitly, relevance and integrity, minus the B-list celebrity status and the occasional Rolling Stone cover, is not an acceptable option to her. So, rather than go the way of Kate Bush, Tom Waits and the woman in my avatar, she's chosen to make a fool of herself. She had a fan base that was willing to follow her pretty much anywhere, and she still managed to alienate them. She and her crackerjack management team have decided to chase a market that does not exist. She has replaced the unconventional with the conventional. She has become what she claims to be the opposite of. She has opted out of aging gracefully. I have decided I'm not ok with it.

Not to get all Ayn Rand on you, but no creative person can create based on how their work will be recieved. It's stifling, and the results are not good. To me, that is obviously what's happened to her. And it's been going on for years! Failure after failure after failure. Being a Tori Amos fan has gone from mildly embarassing to completely humiliating. I feel like I'm in Abu Ghraib with Tori pointing at my dick for the camera.
This latest debacle is just the nail in the coffin for me. By saying that her music got softer because her daughter wouldn't understand, Tori was really trying to say, "I know you guys are starting to hate me, but I'm coming back!" We're not saying the Tori we haven't heard in a while is coming back; SHE did. And then she put on a hot dress and wig for a promo picture that's really a giant caricature of what she used to be. I thought she was really gonna do it this time. She knows she fucked up, and I thought this album would make for great backtracking. But thus far, not the case! I think she's just changing her strategy a bit by making her fan base think she's up to something while making bullshit music. Playing both sides. I realize I've only heard like five minutes off what is sure to be a fifteen hour opus, but I don't see this turning around.
So what's the real problem with me saying I won't buy this album? Or that I won't go out of my way to see her on tour? Or that I won't stand caged up in the excessive cold/heat to kiss her ass? If you're down with all this, great. Have fun. But you can't blame any conscious human being for not agreeing. "

"I realize I've only heard like five minutes off what is sure to be a fifteen hour opus, but I don't see this turning around."

Bill, the guy who wrote this, is a regular poster on MTF and when Molly Knight put this eloquent critique up on her site he came in for a real bashing over there, it was so typical of the way some people there will defend anything Tori does no matter how bad it is, and will turn viciously on anyone who speaks an honest opinion. To his credit, he defended his opinion well and I for one agree with much of what he says. Bill is one of the 'regulars' - that small group of fans who follow T around on tour - he's had more opportunity than most to observe what makes her tick, and I think a lot of his observations are coming from personal experience.

It was funny reading the reaction to the cover on MTF - a lot of 'OMG I LOVE IT!!' but with a sense of 'oh god, what the hell is this' underneath. You could tell people were trying to put a brave face on it and rationalize it to themselves. And within a few hours, Undented - the main 'official' fan site - had a statement up saying that this picture is NOT the cover.

I think the boards are being monitored for reaction. Undented is saying that the cover will be chosen 'within the next few days.'

I just hope to god they choose something a bit less hideous and badly done, this time.

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I'd be the first to admit that my favourite Tori era was around Choirgirl and Venus, such power and emotion behind her, the plugged tour is still one of the most fantastic concerts I have been to, witnessing her play a piano and a keyboard at the same time whilst howling Cruel at the audience with such a fixated stare.

She was incredible to behold on the Plugged tour, like a force of nature. This is what frustrates me so much about her descent into the ridiculous - she is a fantastically gifted musician, an awesome player and singer. Why isn't that ENOUGH for her? Why can't she just let herself BE? Hiding behind these lame characters and concepts is making her look desperate and stupid, quite frankly.

This is the woman who, in her 20s, had a moment of truth when she saw that she had gone from being a child prodigy on the piano to a 'bimbo' in thigh-high leather boots in YKTR, and swore that she'd never compromise her gift like that again.

[blue]

Incidentally, according to the Polish website where the tracklist and pictures first appeared, the album is going to come with .... trading cards. Five cards representing the characters will be randomly included with each copy of the album.

I seriously cannot believe that she's sunk as low as using TRADING CARDS to sell multiple copies of her album to devoted fans.

[sound world]

That cover is hilarious.Enjoy!
Time for some perspective.
It's not the end of the world.She's only a musician,not a saviour of anything.Have a laugh.Listen to something different! Eat more vegetables! It's like being at a Baptists' meeting on this thread sometimes.

Musicians are just ordinary folks with a few wiring changes here and there.
Trouble is,some musos of the rock/pop fraternity/sorority receive so much adulation and overblown hysteria (of the 'I was an angst-ridden teen girl who thought Tori was my saviour' type,or the 'these lyrics are like the Ximenes crossword,they must mean something really deep and important' type) that it goes to their heads,and the perspectives go bonkers.Very difficult to deal with,particularly if the fruitcake factor is already quite prominent in your personality.

To me,it looks like she's (what is she,43?) going through the MLC.
(Midlife crisis to those of you under 30.)

Your turn will come

It will pass.

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Breaking into this discussion........

Set out below....somewhere.....is my top 20 favourite tracks by Tori.
Now, all though I have all of Tori's studio albums, I've never really considered myself a fan. It would never occur to me for example to visit a Tori website let alone post anything on a Tori forum.

So, what interests me, is what the true Tori fans on this forum think of my list. Do my choices give you any insight as to the style of Tori's music that I have a preference for?

So,here are my Top 20 in no real particular order of preference, although the album version of 'Hey Jupitar' is my all-time favourite Tori song.

Horses
Hey Jupitar
Putting The Damage On
Bells For Her
The Wrong Band
Icicle
The Power Of Orange Knickers
Ribbons Undone
Witness
I Can't See New York
In Your Cloud
Girl
Silent All These Years
Winter
China
Purple People
Spark
Northern Lad
Black Dove
Concertina.

This is a really interesting mix actually, Rob - the more ballady/pop tracks like China, Northern Lad, Orange Knickers, Witness etc is what I'd expect from a 'casual' fan, but alongside them you have tracks that represent the very pure, classical side of Tori - Horses, Icicle, Bells For Her, and some of her very 'dark' side - Black Dove, Spark, along with the more mature, mellow side - ICSNY, Your Cloud, and some of the early stand-out quirky pop tracks. Considering you don't regard yourself as a big Tori fan, you have a really balanced appreciation of her work in all it's different aspects. Awesome!

[blue]

That cover is hilarious.Enjoy!
Time for some perspective.
It's not the end of the world.She's only a musician,not a saviour of anything.Have a laugh.Listen to something different! Eat more vegetables! It's like being at a Baptists' meeting on this thread sometimes.

Don't read it, then. Tori's music, her ideas and the way she expresses them, are of tremendous interest to a lot of people who've followed her work for years. If you're not one of them, create a jazz thread and go talk about what's important to you, OK? And I can guarantee you the Tori fans here will not come into it, with no interest in or experience of jazz, and piss all over you as you discuss.

[sound world]

Oh c'mon,I was only trying to lighten things up.It's like the Queen has died or something.
Sorry.

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Seriously, dude - rule 1 of Toridom: do not mess with Tori fans during Crazy Season (ie album release time). You're liable to get your head and other extraneous organs bitten off. This stuff might be a matter of amusement to you and the rest of the world, but to us it is interesting and important. Tori fans tend to be passionate about her work and her ideas. If you can't respect that, and you have no interest in talking about her work, don't come in here and post. Your only contribution to this thread so far has been to laugh at the main posters. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is simply rude and unnecessary. It's not something I'd ever dream of doing to you in a jazz thread.

Like it or not, this is normal in Toriworld when a new project emerges. It's happening all over the 'net, in the many, many boards devoted to this artist's work. This is how we do things in Toriworld. If you have nothing other than sarcasm to contribute, don't be surprised if you get short shrift.

[sound world]

Seriously, dude - rule 1 of Toridom: do not mess with Tori fans during Crazy Season (ie album release time). You're liable to get your head and other extraneous organs bitten off.

(Vision of hordes of the lone and palely loitering denizens of Toriworld,the British Doll Posse, converging on deepest Wiltshire)

*quakes in terror*

No,seriously,I was only trying to sympathise really.The vast majority of my favourite musicians put out their product/compositions/whatever long ago ,so I have the benefit of hindsight to live with their worst excesses.It must be distressing to experience the decline of someone you grew up with as it happens.I've enjoyed the Tori things I've heard (most of which you yourself sent me,Beth),and I wouldn't denigrate her as a musician.I'm just pointing out what doesn't really need pointing out,that people who get a taste of sleb life can make major errors of judgment from inflated egos or whatever.And I'm serious about her maybe going through a midlife crisis.I wasn't really being sarcastic,especially about the fans;certainly not 'laughing at the main posters',who after all,are my regular friends here, but I do think it's good to take a step back sometimes and think,OK,there's lots more musical fish in the sea,maybe she's put out a clunker this time,but,so it goes,life goes on.

I find this thread very entertaining,not from some imagined aloof perspective,as you seem to think-admittedly partly because I don't have a huge emotional investment in the subject (for a change where music is concerned),and I enjoy reading about other peoples' passions.
And there's no rule to say I can't contribute, is there?-I mean,just because you've been a longtime fan of someone doesn't give you some a priori right to monopolise a discussion,does it? and often,it has to be said,this is the only happening thread round here.
Also I don't think it's at all fair to say that I've been taking the piss out of people here.If you look back through the,er,17 pages of this thread,my posts in it have either been reflections on the music industry and the value systems we invest in it,suggestions for other things to listen to,applause for the passions displayed in the thread or crap jokes.
Anyway,didn't mean to cause offence.I'm sure Tori,if she has had musical integrity in the past,will return to it.

[blue]

No,seriously,I was only trying to sympathise really.

Really? How is implying that people discussing something that interests them are like religious fanatics 'sympathising'?

I've enjoyed the Tori things I've heard (most of which you yourself sent me,Beth),and I wouldn't denigrate her as a musician.

You're perfectly free to say whatever you like about her as a musician. That is the purpose of this thread. It'd be a more valuable contribution than pointing and sniggering at the people discussing her in here, which is what your two most recent posts amount to.

I wasn't really being sarcastic,especially about the fans;certainly not 'laughing at the main posters'

Really? Who were you comparing to religious nuts, then?

I do think it's good to take a step back sometimes and think,OK,there's lots more musical fish in the sea,maybe she's put out a clunker this time,but,so it goes,life goes on.

Fine. That's your perspective for the artists you love. As I've pointed out in my previous post, that's not how it tends to work in Tori's fanbase. Her work, her decisions, how she presents them visually, are things that her fans love to discuss and chew over and debate. And we are perfectly entitled to do that, whether you approve or not. If you find it tiresome, you are equally free to not spend your time reading it. Feel free to take a step back and say OK, life goes on.

there's no rule to say I can't contribute, is there?-I mean,just because you've been a longtime fan of someone doesn't give you some a priori right to monopolise a discussion,does it?

I'd be delighted for anyone to contribute to this thread with thoughts on the subject - the point I am making is that you are not contributing to this thread. You've posted to comment on the people who ARE contributing to the thread. Coming in here to point and laugh doesn't tell me anything about your opinion of Tori, only your opinion of her fans. And that being the case, expect to be called on it from this direction.

and often,it has to be said,this is the only happening thread round here.

Indeed, and is that your problem with it I wonder, Dave? The fact that the female artist currently causing the most discussion and interest on a Stina Nordenstam board is not Stina Nordenstam? If so, all you have to do is wait. When Stina puts her new album out, I'm sure there'll be some discussion.

Also I don't think it's at all fair to say that I've been taking the piss out of people here.

You don't see likening people having a discussion about a favourite artist to religious nuts as taking the piss? Sorry, I do. It's rude, simple as.

Anyway,didn't mean to cause offence.

Fair enough. Hopefully any future contributions to this thread will be on the subject of Tori Amos and her work.

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According to one of the MTF posters-with-sources, Epic are still trying to decide which of the three tracks we've heard as clips will be released as a single, which is what's causing the delay in releasing more official information about the project as a whole.

I guess I'm hoping they'll choose 'Bouncing Off Clouds', as that seems like the least lame option. It's a decent enough pop song, nice melody and vocals, upbeat. I'd rather that than either of the others.

[sound world]

Hey Beth,shall we start up your 'Argument' thread idea?

I quote you! from that thread,maybe unfairly out of context,but anyway:-

'I was thinking more of the comic potential than the argument potential, to be honest. But then previous experience has shown that humour isn't top of the priority list with many folk here, either. '

So is it OK everywhere except the Tori thread?


Really,you have to believe me that I am NOT taking the piss.Just making crap jokes sometimes-which is what I meant by my Baptist thing,and I'm very sorry if I misfired and offended you.
I will say five Hail Toris before I go to bed. Whoops...

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Hey Beth,shall we start up your 'Argument' thread idea?

I quote you! from that thread,maybe unfairly out of context,but anyway:-

'I was thinking more of the comic potential than the argument potential, to be honest. But then previous experience has shown that humour isn't top of the priority list with many folk here, either. '

So is it OK everywhere except the Tori thread?

You may like to go back and check my post again. Pay particular attention to the words 'DESIGNATED THREAD'. And I seem to recall you were the first to put a dampner on the idea due to your 'dislike of arguing'.

There was certainly humour in your posts, but it was purely for your own enjoyment. It was mean-spirited and directed at people engaging in a discussion that harmed you in no way at all. This is not what I envisioned for my 'designated thread' idea, as you well know. The fact that you are trying to defend yourself by twisting my idea into a convenient shield is not likely to make things better here.

You've said sorry three times now. Do you think you could also stop prolonging this so those of us interested in Tori's new album can get back to our discussion?