Sick Brits?

[RobB]

This afternoon my brother, who's a train driver, came round for a chat. He was telling me that last Thursday there was 'another' ( they're reasonably common although seldom publicised) suicide at a train station here in Essex.

A guy decided to end his life by leaping from the end of the platform into the path of a 100mph inter-city train which was passing through.

I'll leave it to your imagination the mess that was made.

Anyway,at the weekend my brother was talking to one of the transport police who had attended the scene and he was saying that people were leaning over the road bridge that was above the caranage, taking photos with their mobile phones and shouting out 'oi mate, you've missed a bit' and pointing out bits of body that they could see.

How ghoulish and sick some people are!

[wirbel]

In a time where everything is recorded and photographed and news goes around the globe in a millisecond it's not surprising that people aren't upset by something like this anymore; they don't care for the 'small' stories anymore. Only big terrorist attacks can amuse them. sad but true

[sound world]

I once witnessed a suicide in front of a train.Thing was,I'd been waiting for the train for about half an hour and the guy who jumped was sitting along the bench from me for the whole time.Ever since,I've wished that I'd talked to him...
It's a horrible business,and you can only imagine what it's like for the train driver.
As always with suicide,it's the people left behind who suffer.

[d.a.walker]

I witnessed a man's headless body being removed from a train line when I lived back in the UK, they would not let us get out of the train which was stationed just outside the platform. The man had walked into the tunnel to kill himself. What was worse was that blood that sprayed from him soaked into the concrete walls near to the tunnel entrance. I was so traumatised by the event of having to almost be a forced witness watching the removal of the body, the body then lying on the platform while they waited for the coroner to 'pronounce' the decapitated man was dead, and then the removal from the station of the body whilst myself and everyone in the train on the other platform was literally locked in and had ring side seats to it all. I closed my eyes and just waited until the train began moving to the platform and then got out of there as soon as possible. From that day I took another train that went a different way to get to work.

It was one of the worst and most upsetting days of my life, let alone for the poor man who committed suicide. And I never understood why so many people wanted to watch the whole hideous thing, and I always wondered are people really that desensitised to 'real' tragedy that it has become just another form of entertainment for them? My New Years resolution from that year onwards was to never read another newspaper or watch the news again. The ugliness of life can be unbearable and some people relish in it, you can call it human nature or human habit, but in all honesty there is nothing humane about it at all.

[blue]

Suicide is an interesting subject - I've just been studying an essay on why it should not be considered morally wrong, by the Enlightenment philosopher Hume, so it's on my mind at the moment. The subject that is, not the deed.

I tend to agree with Hume that our lives are our own to dispense with as we choose, particularly when living is literally unbearable for whatever reason. And one would assume that if a person chooses to end it all, they must have reasons that seem adequate to them. What fascinates me is why anyone would choose to do it in such a horrific way as to throw themselves in the path of a train. That strikes me as as being not just about wanting to end your own suffering, but wanting others to share it. The shock and trauma inflicted on the driver, for instance - a dreadful memory for the rest of his life, an inevitable if misplaced sense of guilt. A terrible experience for any witnesses, all the drama involving the emergency services, the sheer horror that any family will be left with knowing how you died. There's something vindictive and attention-seeking about it, like wanting to punish the world that's made you so unhappy. And in that sense, I wonder if being looked at after the deed is done isn't exactly what the jumper would wish for.

[sound world]

Although I agree in principle that our lives are our own to do with as we please,suicide,however it's done,is horrific to anyone witnessing it or having to deal with the aftermath.I think a Robinson Crusoe,without other humans about, might be morally justified in contemplating suicide,but otherwise there's always somebody who is affected,someone left behind,and the finality of it means that the effect can be terribly devastating for those people.It's the ultimate act of selfishness in one regard.
I'm very close to several people who work with folk who are on the edge.In some cases,they lose...

I'm reminded of the scenes in 'Wings of Desire' where the angels can't quite prevent people from taking their own lives.Heartbreaking...

[blue]

Although I agree in principle that our lives are our own to do with as we please,suicide,however it's done,is horrific to anyone witnessing it or having to deal with the aftermath.

Oh I don't dispute that - see my post in The Big Picture. I've witnessed first hand the effect of a suicide on those who loved the person concerned, and it was traumatic and frightening to behold. The point I was really making was in response to Rob's comments about the 'ghoulishness' of people watching the events he described - it just struck me that when you choose to commit suicide in such a public way, that draws a number of strangers into your plan, it's interesting to ponder whether that isn't exactly what you want in the first place; people looking at your death.

I think a Robinson Crusoe,without other humans about, might be morally justified in contemplating suicide,but otherwise there's always somebody who is affected,someone left behind,and the finality of it means that the effect can be terribly devastating for those people.It's the ultimate act of selfishness in one regard.

Hume's response would be along the lines of 'why should the suffering I will have to endure if I go on in this life be of less weight than the small amount of good I might do others if I remain?', and I tend to agree with him. I do find it odd that suicide is considered a 'selfish' act, because of the impact on other people; isn't the selfishness on the part of the other people, who would require someone they apparently love to go on living in mental or physical agony to serve their own need?

[sound world]

It's something about the nothingness of it,if you know what I mean .
You take your life,you enter the void.No one can argue or reason with you any more.You cop out.On some more mystical level,you've abnegated your responsibility to be a witness to life,to consciousness.It's the ultimate act of separation from the divine.
These are gut feelings of mine,I'm not very good at arguing.

isn't the selfishness on the part of the other people, who would require someone they apparently love to go on living in mental or physical agony to serve their own need? Questionmark

Children,for example?

[RobB]

What fascinates me is why anyone would choose to do it in such a horrific way as to throw themselves in the path of a train

I think probably its the most effective way to commit suicide simply because its virtually unsurvivable, although its odd that more suicidal people don't run onto the dual carriage ways or motorways because these days a lot of the traffic are travelling as fast as trains.

One suicidal person the other year did survive jumping in front of a train at a local station. Unfortunately the train was slowing down to pull up at the platform so this guy jumped in front of the train just seconds before it stopped. The result was that he survived the attempt but had both his legs amputated.

But from what my brother has told me in the past, nearly in every case it turns out that the victims were all known to have mental health problems.

In the past these people would have been in institutions and cared for.
Now,thanks to the so-called 'care in the communitity' a lot of these people are having to fend for themselves and quite frankly, a lot of them can't cope.

It'll probably turn out that the guy who died last week was in need of round the clock supervision and care but was let down by the system.

[blue]

It's something about the nothingness of it,if you know what I mean .
You take your life,you enter the void.No one can argue or reason with you any more.You cop out.On some more mystical level,you've abnegated your responsibility to be a witness to life,to consciousness.It's the ultimate act of separation from the divine.

So does that mean if you get hit by a car and die you're doing the same thing? I mean ... you're still dying, right? Still entering the void, and no-one can reason or argue with you about the way you stepped out into the road without paying proper attention. Dying is dying. Is one method approved by 'the divine' and another not?

Who placed on us a responsibility to be a witness to life?

Questions, questions.

Children,for example?

I suspect the average child wouldn't necessarily be aware if a parent was in torment and wishing to die, and if they were, they wouldn't necessarily comprehend what they were asking by wanting them to keep going. A child's understanding of adult torment is speculative, just as an adult's understanding of childhood torment is.

I do agree though that in a case where there are children depending on a parent, there is a moral responsibility for that parent to do everything in his or her power to seek help before deciding that they just can't go on. If they do everything they can, if they try and try again, and life is still unbearable, then I don't think it's selfish to let go of it for good. One could argue it would be selfish to try to keep going and inflict one's agony on those children as they grow up and become more aware, or possibly even end up harming them. I think it would probably come down to what does the most serious harm. Losing a parent at all is devastating for a child; losing one to suicide can have serious psychological effects for life. I remember reading somewhere that statistically, people who have lost their mother to suicide are more likely to commit suicide themselves.

I know that at a time in my life when I was battling suicidal thoughts, when suicide became almost an entity, a monster that was threatening me and who I often feared I wouldn't have the strength to defeat, the one thing that I could never rationalise to myself was my responsibility to my daugher. The weight of that responsibility was huge, and in the end, it was enough to stop the scales tipping completely in favour of suicide. I struggled on, but the distress caused to my daughter by seeing me in such despair sometimes made me wonder if it would have been kinder to just go.

I absolutely sympathise with anyone in that situation. I personally wouldn't regard suicide as selfish even if it did leave children behind, because I understand what an abyss someone would have to be in for the children to not be enough to tip the scales.

[blue]

I think probably its the most effective way to commit suicide simply because its virtually unsurvivable, although its odd that more suicidal people don't run onto the dual carriage ways or motorways because these days a lot of the traffic are travelling as fast as trains.

I agree it's a method that brings with it a level of certainty about the outcome that, say, taking an overdose doesn't, but it's still a pointedly public way of ending your life. Hanging is virtually unsurvivable if it's done correctly, so is shooting, and those are methods that can be effected in a private way. Still horrific for whoever finds you, but it's not a public spectacle in the same way that jumping in front of a train is. This is what interests me, the motive driving that need to make your death such a visual event.

One suicidal person the other year did survive jumping in front of a train at a local station. Unfortunately the train was slowing down to pull up at the platform so this guy jumped in front of the train just seconds before it stopped. The result was that he survived the attempt but had both his legs amputated.

We had an incident here on Boxing Day, on a stretch of the track I cross every day on the way to work. An 18 year old lad apparently lay down on the track, but as the train was almost upon him he changed his mind and tried to get off the track - unfortunately not all of him managed it. His legs had to be amputated at the scene.

[sound world]

Not an easy one,is it.
I think I meant-you have a free will,so the ultimate choice is whether to take your own life.Stepping into the road is an act of free will but you're not necessarily choosing to kill yourself.

On the subject of chucking yourself in front of traffic-perhaps some unconscious decision not to cause a pile-up means more people chuck themselves in front of trains.But how do we know? It could be that a lot of hit and runs are suicides.

But in front of the train is a traditional method,like gas ovens and high bridges.Perhaps there's something romantically lonesome about it.

I think it's time to invoke the old bard:-

'To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.'

[blue]

Shakespeare is the man.

This:

But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?


is one of the things Hume deals with in 'Of the Immortality of the Soul', another essay I've been studying. The dread that we have of death was apparently considered by theologians at the time to be 'evidence' of the existence of an afterlife, something I find extraordinary with my 20th/21st century perspective. Hume demolishes it by pointing out that if nature hadn't endowed us with a fear of death, there's a good chance the human race would have died out.

[RobB]

I think probably its the most effective way to commit suicide simply because its virtually unsurvivable, although its odd that more suicidal people don't run onto the dual carriage ways or motorways because these days a lot of the traffic are travelling as fast as trains.

I agree it's a method that brings with it a level of certainty about the outcome that, say, taking an overdose doesn't, but it's still a pointedly public way of ending your life. Hanging is virtually unsurvivable if it's done correctly, so is shooting, and those are methods that can be effected in a private way. Still horrific for whoever finds you, but it's not a public spectacle in the same way that jumping in front of a train is. This is what interests me, the motive driving that need to make your death such a visual event.

I guess every person and every situation is unique and the level of desperation has to be taken into account.

I'm thinking here in particular of the people who lept to their deaths off of the world trade center following the 9/11 attacks.

You couldn't get much more of a public spectacle than that plus they were putting the people on the ground in danger by their actions.

I guess there are different types of suicide.......meaningful suicide and unmeaningful suicide........if that makes sense?

[sound world]

I can't imagine what it was like for those folk who jumped off the Twin Towers...what a quandary.I suppose they felt death was inevitable,and that way was quicker.What would I do? I'm petrified of heights.