Birth

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Wondered if any of you have seen this picture, and what you thought of it?

I've only watched it once (will definitely be watching it again!), but I found it very affecting. It got very mixed reviews on release, I think, and the reviews on Amazon are very polarised. Nicole Kidman plays a rather repressed widow, a member of a wealthy Manhattan family, who on the eve of her second marriage receives a visit from a ten year old boy who tells her he is her first husband, and he doesn't want her to marry again.

A very interesting premise for a story. I have to say I found it engrossing, thoughtful, elegaic, a fascinating portrait of a woman temporarily unbalanced by a bolt from the blue. The eerie calm and certitude of the little boy is unnerving, and raises some interesting questions about the capacity of children to control adults.

I think one reason some people took against this film is obviously because it's dealing with a very, very fraught topic - that of relations between an adult and a child which overstep our natural boundaries. I'd say I'm pretty sensitive to this subject, but I thought it was handled really well in this picture - I think the reason it impressed me is because it took what I consider to be a rational, mature middle ground on the subject of older children's sexuality, ie as not something imposed by perverts or run away from by hysterics, but as something occurring naturally within the child and owned by them - something that is not an adult's business, either way. Several people in the reviews I read were clearly unable to cope with the idea of a child experiencing feelings that we regard as belonging to adults and needed to characterise it as something sick, claiming that if the genders were reversed - if the adult had been male, and the ten year old female - the film would not have been taken in the same way, but I'm not actually sure that's true. I think such views are totally missing the point of the story, and are very characteristic of this terrified inability our society has to allow older children their real feelings, a response that is being dictated by the perversions of a minority.

I think the point of the story is the capacity of people, child and adult, to believe in something extraordinary and how that belief can cause chaos that turns the world upside down and leaves it never the same again. It's a very thought-provoking and moving story, beautifully filmed in wintery New York settings. Not for those who like something to 'happen' every couple of minutes, but I loved it.

[sound world]

Sounds very interesting.I vaguely recall reading about something similar that actually happened,somewhere like Russia,insofar as the woman met a child who claimed to be the reincarnation of her former husband-which she totally concurred with,so that they ended up living together again.Her husband had died in an accident and the child had a birthmark where the wound had been,and was able to describe many features of their former life
But it sounds as if this film has explored some of the human ramifications of such an oddity.
God,there's so many films I have to catch up with...

[RobB]

I havn't seen the film yet but from Beth's description it reminds me very much of 'The Innocents' where a governess begins to relate (emotionally as opposed to physically) to the spirit of a deceased man inhabiting the body of a young boy.
It was only a story but a lot of people had a problem with the adult/child relationship in that film.

I do find it strange that a lot of adults find it difficult to accept childrens interest in sex.
Its almost as if they've forgotten what they were like when they themselves were children.

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But it sounds as if this film has explored some of the human ramifications of such an oddity.

It really does, in a way that I think obviously just made some people very uncomfortable. There's an important scene where Scott, the little boy, decides to join Anna (his former wife, as he says) in the bath, and I know there was a slightly hysterical response to that when the film was first released. But I thought it was an amazing scene that demonstrated how far both parties were involved in the central premise of the story.

The reactions of Anna's family and her lover are fascinating to watch too, because initally they all find it quite amusing, of course, when it's just a case of a little boy who perhaps has a crush on Anna. But then as she begins to unravel and his power over her gains momentum, they are lost as to how to conduct themselves. There's a fantastic scene at the rehearsal for Anna's wedding when her lover, till this point rather urbane and contained, suddenly explodes and all his rage at what's happening floods out, like a visual expression of what everyone's actually feeling. Amazing.

The thing about this film is that things are actually a little more complex even than they seem at first. Which raises even more questions about the behaviour of the protagonists. But that's a discussion it's hard to have without spoiling it for those who haven't seen it yet.

[blue]

I havn't seen the film yet but from Beth's description it reminds me very much of 'The Innocents' where a governess begins to relate (emotionally as opposed to physically) to the spirit of a deceased man inhabiting the body of a young boy.
It was only a story but a lot of people had a problem with the adult/child relationship in that film.

Yep, The Innocents is one of my all-time favourite movies as you probably know Rob, and I thought of it watching this film - that incredible scene where Deborah Kerr, as the governess, is saying goodnight to Miles, the little boy she's looking after, and something is implied in their goodnight kiss that shocks both the governess and the audience. But not the little boy. It's a very similar feeling to the scene in the bath I've mentioned above.

Curious how a gap of 40 years between the two films has not altered the degree of discomfort the subject arouses - if anything, it's worse now than it would have been in 1963 I think, because back then people had not been so sensitised by widespread knowledge of paedophilia. There wasn't this inability to cope with the idea that older children have a sexual nature that is theirs by right, because there wasn't the dread of it being taken advantage of by an adult.

I do find it strange that a lot of adults find it difficult to accept childrens interest in sex.
Its almost as if they've forgotten what they were like when they themselves were children.

Such an important point, and something I kept thinking of reading some of the reviews ... ' were you ever actually a child? Cos you seem to have conveniently forgotten a few things.' I mean I can remember having very intense feelings of physical longing when I was nine, ten years old. I wasn't actually sure what sex was at that age, I couldn't have articulated exactly what was behind the feelings, but they were very definitely there and later on I recognised them for what they were, and didn't feel any discomfort about it. I think it's so sad that we've become so dominated by the spectre of paedophilia that many people can only react to the sexuality of children in one of two equally inappropriate ways - to be eroticised by it, or to be so terrified of being eroticised by it that they need to deny it completely. The rational adult perspective - that children are entitled to their sexual feelings, and that we can acknowledge that without being corrupted - seems to be pushed to the margins.

Anyway, fascinating film that really made me think about all this and handles its subject matter in a mature and thoughtful manner, as well as being a kind of ... like a magical fantasy at first, then a darker mystery and revelation that makes you rethink everything you've just watched.

[witchy]

Is it the movie with Nicole Kidman with very short hair? I also read a lot of different reviews about it, I thought it'd be definitely worth-wile, I just never got to it. I don't think I'm int the right emotional state to watch such a movie, but I will. I really want to see how they worked with such a subject.

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Yes that's the movie Sara, it's definitely worth a watch sometime.

There are a couple of very long shots in this film that focus just on a character's face and the emotions playing across it as they're realising something ... very unusual, I don't think I've seen that in any other movie. A lot of people in the Amazon reviews complained about these shots in their general 'oh god this movie is so boring nothing happens' rants, but I was very struck by them. The close-up on Nicole's face as she's sitting in the theatre with her lover lasts for about two minutes, and everything she's feeling is plain as day. She doesn't have to tell anyone that she's filled with doubt about her marriage and is beginning to believe the boy is her dead husband because you can see it so clearly in her expressions. It's quite a remarkable bit of acting.

[sound world]

..... that incredible scene where Deborah Kerr, as the governess, is saying goodnight to Miles, the little boy she's looking after, and something is implied in their goodnight kiss that shocks both the governess and the audience.....

Is it the same as 'The Turn of the Screw"?? I never knew there was a film of a different title.Anyone know the Britten opera? (absolutely the right composer to write it).

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Yes, both film and opera are taken from Henry James' little novella 'The Turn of the Screw'. If you haven't seen the film Dave you're missing out on one of the finest British films ever made, in my humble opinion - it's a startling, beautiful, creepy masterpiece. Unfortunately it's only available as a region 1 DVD at present, I'm hoping a region 2 version is released at some point because I hate not having it in my collection. I'm still relying on an ancient video taped from a TV showing.

Let me see if I can find that compilation of clips made some years ago by a Kate Bush fan, to accompany her song 'The Infant Kiss' (inspired by the film), it must be on youtube somewhere - you can turn the sound down, it will give you an idea of the film.

Okay found it, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTkdw4C0XA


It actually starts off with the scene I mentioned above, the one that caused controversy back in 1963 when the film was released.

[sound world]

Aha,I have seen that film long ago,and it scared the bejesus out of me-but ever after I always thought it was called 'Turn of the screw'-which is possibly why I've never seen it since
I'd highly recommend Britten's opera-and don't get put off by the word 'opera' because there's very little screaming and shouting,and only a tiny orchestra which Britten uses with incredible skill-also incredibly scary!
The opera really plays on the reactions and breakdown of the Governess.

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I love the opera too, and you're right, Britten was the perfect composer for this source material.

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'The Innocents' also inspired, I'm certain, another great film that Rob and I discussed in a thread here, 'The Others', also starring Nicole Kidman, this time playing the Deborah Kerr figure. Well worth a watch if 'The Innocents' is your thing.

[witchy]

I know it's not the most recent movie, but I FINALLY managed to see it, yesterday night.
I wanted to sleep but I couldn't stop watching it. I confess I have been crying like a lamb almost the whole time through. What a terrible thing to love somebody that way, so hard, so resiliently (does the word exist?)...I felt so close to this broken woman, so close...but also to the child, innocent enough to know love right away (ah the power of words!). I didn't find the theme disturbing at all, honestly, there is nothing inappropirate going on about the two and I believe you can love a soul inhabiting the wrong body. I wanted to believe, just like Anna, although I had figured it since the beginning. What was really unbearable is the fact that nobody tells her the truth, neither the child nor Claire, while the truth could have set her free at last. First devastating pain, but freedom at last...the film ends up with a choke for me...and now I just can't take it out of my head...