Hi beth, how ya doin? You know, I think this is a nice theory, and I hope that it's true, but I have a feeling that too much work went into this album to be just a contract filler. 18 songs, and all the lush packaging... if she wanted to just get something out there she could have just done her own piano-based kind of Metal Machine Music or something. I think the 'new Tori' is here to stay. I do like the Beekeeper, as I said before - better than Scarlet's Walk at least, but it'll never have the effect on me that some of the earlier songs did. But at least we still have those! Let's not starting wishing divorce on her or anything. [disguise]elizabeth wrote: this album has been made to fulfil her contract with Epic, and she has better stuff in reserve.
The Tori Thread
Hey Angie, I'm good - you? [kisses]
I guess I just find it hard to believe that Tori has put her all into this album, in terms of the writing/making of. There's nothing on The Beekeeper that she couldn't have knocked out in her sleep, IMHO. The music is never more than competent for someone of her talent, and the lyrics are just lazy at times. Yes there are a lot of songs, but we know Tori is prolific on every project and that she has lots of stuff 'on the backburner' as she herself has said, bits and pieces of not-quite songs that she'll come back to for a melody here or a riff there. If the album IS intended to fulfil her contract with Sony, filling it with this stuff wouldn't have been too much of a problem for her - and Sony are none the wiser because they've been given a BIG album.
I don't think the effort that's gone into packaging and promoting the album negates it being a contract-filler either, if anything she'd probably try to compensate with that side. 'Strange Little Girls' was a contract-filler by her own admission after the fact, and she devoted huge effort to the packaging and promotion of that one.
I think the problems with The Beekeeper are not necessarily to do with the 'new Tori' - after all, new Tori has written some absolutely gorgeous stuff, 'Scarlet's Walk' was a wonderful achievement and the piano-based songs on the Hidden Treasures e.p are beautiful and very moving. I love that quiet passion she's been exhibiting over the past few years. The problem I have with The Beekeeper is that it seems to lack any sort of passion at all, and unfortunately if the reports of long-time fans going to the recent concerts are anything to go by, so does her live performance at the moment. I find this particulary telling. I've heard a few mp3s myself and she does indeed sound like a shadow of her former self, playing this material. The passion is just not there. She sounds like someone going through the motions and thinking of the $$.
'Garlands' is my hope. Have you heard it, Angie? She put it on the DVD in the limited editon of The Beekeeper. Thematically it has nothing to do with the album, and musically it feels more like Tori fully committed to what she's doing. I'm hopeful that she gave it to us as a sort of 'don't worry!', you know?
As for divorce .... no, of course no-one who loves her could wish that on her. After everything she's been through in her life, and everything she's given to others, nobody deserves that domestic bliss more.
That doesn't mean that we're not allowed to worry that maybe she's lost her way a little since becoming a wife. Personally I am quite unsettled by some of the things she's said and done since she got married - the whole 'it's not attractive to be angry when you're 40' thing, advising young songwriters 'not to swear' in their work, the censoring of Pro-Widow on the WTSF dvd, and the way she seems to be messing with Botox etc to look more like she did in her 20s. Not to mention that many of the songs on The Beekeeper seem to be obsessively brooding on infidelity in a rather sappy, apologetic way -'maybe I got too set in my ways, he says she reminds him of me when we first met.' This doesn't come across to me like the same fiery, independent, strong-minded woman she was pre-marriage. And yes, I'm aware that as a rather fiery, independent, strong-minded woman who's about to get married myself, I might just be projecting my own fears on to her! 
I dunno Angie - I just think she needs to get her balls back, you know?
I guess I just find it hard to believe that Tori has put her all into this album, in terms of the writing/making of. There's nothing on The Beekeeper that she couldn't have knocked out in her sleep, IMHO. The music is never more than competent for someone of her talent, and the lyrics are just lazy at times. Yes there are a lot of songs, but we know Tori is prolific on every project and that she has lots of stuff 'on the backburner' as she herself has said, bits and pieces of not-quite songs that she'll come back to for a melody here or a riff there. If the album IS intended to fulfil her contract with Sony, filling it with this stuff wouldn't have been too much of a problem for her - and Sony are none the wiser because they've been given a BIG album.
I don't think the effort that's gone into packaging and promoting the album negates it being a contract-filler either, if anything she'd probably try to compensate with that side. 'Strange Little Girls' was a contract-filler by her own admission after the fact, and she devoted huge effort to the packaging and promotion of that one. I think the problems with The Beekeeper are not necessarily to do with the 'new Tori' - after all, new Tori has written some absolutely gorgeous stuff, 'Scarlet's Walk' was a wonderful achievement and the piano-based songs on the Hidden Treasures e.p are beautiful and very moving. I love that quiet passion she's been exhibiting over the past few years. The problem I have with The Beekeeper is that it seems to lack any sort of passion at all, and unfortunately if the reports of long-time fans going to the recent concerts are anything to go by, so does her live performance at the moment. I find this particulary telling. I've heard a few mp3s myself and she does indeed sound like a shadow of her former self, playing this material. The passion is just not there. She sounds like someone going through the motions and thinking of the $$.
'Garlands' is my hope. Have you heard it, Angie? She put it on the DVD in the limited editon of The Beekeeper. Thematically it has nothing to do with the album, and musically it feels more like Tori fully committed to what she's doing. I'm hopeful that she gave it to us as a sort of 'don't worry!', you know?
As for divorce .... no, of course no-one who loves her could wish that on her. After everything she's been through in her life, and everything she's given to others, nobody deserves that domestic bliss more.
That doesn't mean that we're not allowed to worry that maybe she's lost her way a little since becoming a wife. Personally I am quite unsettled by some of the things she's said and done since she got married - the whole 'it's not attractive to be angry when you're 40' thing, advising young songwriters 'not to swear' in their work, the censoring of Pro-Widow on the WTSF dvd, and the way she seems to be messing with Botox etc to look more like she did in her 20s. Not to mention that many of the songs on The Beekeeper seem to be obsessively brooding on infidelity in a rather sappy, apologetic way -'maybe I got too set in my ways, he says she reminds him of me when we first met.' This doesn't come across to me like the same fiery, independent, strong-minded woman she was pre-marriage. And yes, I'm aware that as a rather fiery, independent, strong-minded woman who's about to get married myself, I might just be projecting my own fears on to her! I dunno Angie - I just think she needs to get her balls back, you know?
For anyone who's interested in the whole 'what's happened to her work since she got married' debate:
http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?t=268508
It's a longish thread but there are some very relevant observations and questions. The original interview comment that sparked it off is certainly surprising (worrying?) reading.
I'm not sure how I feel about it just now, I'm still on a complete high from seeing the lady herself last night in London - complete with the London Community Gospel Choir, no less!
Absolutely fantastic experience, once again she has blown me away with her sheer talent, her wit and grace and strength. Regardless of concerns about how much influence Husband has on her right now, she continues to be a complete inspiration in the flesh. [love] [love]
PS The concert was filmed and some of the footage is going to be used for a single release of 'Sweet The Sting'!
http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?t=268508
It's a longish thread but there are some very relevant observations and questions. The original interview comment that sparked it off is certainly surprising (worrying?) reading.
I'm not sure how I feel about it just now, I'm still on a complete high from seeing the lady herself last night in London - complete with the London Community Gospel Choir, no less!
Absolutely fantastic experience, once again she has blown me away with her sheer talent, her wit and grace and strength. Regardless of concerns about how much influence Husband has on her right now, she continues to be a complete inspiration in the flesh. [love] [love] PS The concert was filmed and some of the footage is going to be used for a single release of 'Sweet The Sting'!
I've got the album on right now Paul, second time of listening today. I wouldn't say hearing the songs live has made me appreciate the studio versions any more so than before, in fact I think the structural weakness of some of them is more apparent when she plays them solo - Sweet The Sting is probably the best example of that, I really like the studio version but when she plays it solo the weakness of it is very exposed. The addition of the choir last night made a huge difference to the Beekeeper songs though, and I was more impressed with Original Sinsuality and The Beekeeper live, they both seemed much stronger and more focused solo. OS was longer and more complex than on the record, some gorgeous piano work.
Right now though I can forgive her absolutely anything, because I'm still on cloud 9 from being in her presence! She still has such awesome charisma on stage, and I will never get over her playing. She is SO TINY and yet the strength and intensity on that piano ..... amazing, just amazing. Even Dom was impressed and he isn't exactly a fan!!
Right now though I can forgive her absolutely anything, because I'm still on cloud 9 from being in her presence! She still has such awesome charisma on stage, and I will never get over her playing. She is SO TINY and yet the strength and intensity on that piano ..... amazing, just amazing. Even Dom was impressed and he isn't exactly a fan!!
I've read the whole thing. I can't believe how far these people go in their comments about Tori.elizabeth wrote:For anyone who's interested in the whole 'what's happened to her work since she got married' debate.
It's a longish thread but there are some very relevant observations and questions. The original interview comment that sparked it off is certainly surprising (worrying?) reading.
I know what it's like when you "lose contact" with an artist that you admire. But let's face it: we're all moving on in a direction that we think is the right one. Tori does that also. And that changes her perspective on life, music and other things.
The way these people are writing about tori is coming close to a harassment. I disgust the tone they write in.
One of the reasons I don't post in MTF is precisely because there are so many people there who do nothing but whine and complain about everything Tori does or says or plays, but I thought there were some quite articulately expressed and genuinely concerned opinions in that discussion. I think there is a growing sense among a lot of reasonable fans that something is not quite right since she got married, at least in terms of her artistic autonomy. Interesting to hear the views on this.
I can't imagine ever losing contact completely with Tori, even if she does continue down the same track she's going now. Her past music has meant far too much to me, she'll always be cherished in my heart. [kisses]
I can't imagine ever losing contact completely with Tori, even if she does continue down the same track she's going now. Her past music has meant far too much to me, she'll always be cherished in my heart. [kisses]
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St. Francis
- Hallway
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:09 am
The special edition has 'Garlands' on the DVD and is apparently really beautifully done in terms of the packaging, but I don't like this album enough to pay out for it. I've got 'Garlands' on a mini-disk anyway.
The supposed 'single' for 'Sweet The Sting' is going to be DOWNLOAD ONLY. [fire] [fire] Yet again no cd or b-sides. I mean, what is the POINT of releasing a 'single' like that? The hardcore fans are not going to pay to download a song they've already paid for on the album cd, and no-one else is interested in Tori anymore! Way to go, Epic.
The supposed 'single' for 'Sweet The Sting' is going to be DOWNLOAD ONLY. [fire] [fire] Yet again no cd or b-sides. I mean, what is the POINT of releasing a 'single' like that? The hardcore fans are not going to pay to download a song they've already paid for on the album cd, and no-one else is interested in Tori anymore! Way to go, Epic.
elizabeth wrote:The special edition has 'Garlands' on the DVD and is apparently really beautifully done in terms of the packaging, but I don't like this album enough to pay out for it. I've got 'Garlands' on a mini-disk anyway.
The supposed 'single' for 'Sweet The Sting' is going to be DOWNLOAD ONLY. [fire] [fire] Yet again no cd or b-sides. I mean, what is the POINT of releasing a 'single' like that? The hardcore fans are not going to pay to download a song they've already paid for on the album cd, and no-one else is interested in Tori anymore! Way to go, Epic.
she said like two years ago that she won't release more singles with b-sides; her singles now are for promotion, sadly
i miss b-sides too
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gi_interrupted_rl
- Hallway
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- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:36 pm
- Location: ny
Maybe Tori has come to find some sort of peace with a kid and all. Maybe you know how people seem to calm down quite a bit after having a child. I honestly think thats a HUGE part of the change in her music. I prefer to think that Tori is too repsectful of her own music to make a cd just to fulfill her contract, at least without informing her fans...i hope so.
The way The Beekeeper struck me was the same way that To venus and back(i mean excluding still orbiting) and Strange little girl did. It wasn't exactly 'jump for joy this is awesome' but rather it had it's jewels that i could listen to over and over. I suppose every artist has their good and bad albums, so lets hope it's just a phase;) I think i only listen to about half the album, but i love that half!
and one day i'll plant my Beekeeper seeds from the special edition. anyone planted theirs yet?
no matter what Tori's fans have to keep buying her records..its like a disease. a tolerable one tho.
and Elizabeth, it's good to see another 'true' Tori fan...lol
The way The Beekeeper struck me was the same way that To venus and back(i mean excluding still orbiting) and Strange little girl did. It wasn't exactly 'jump for joy this is awesome' but rather it had it's jewels that i could listen to over and over. I suppose every artist has their good and bad albums, so lets hope it's just a phase;) I think i only listen to about half the album, but i love that half!
and one day i'll plant my Beekeeper seeds from the special edition. anyone planted theirs yet?
no matter what Tori's fans have to keep buying her records..its like a disease. a tolerable one tho.
and Elizabeth, it's good to see another 'true' Tori fan...lol
I don't think this has been mentioned yet:
http://www.toribootlegs.com
I haven't gotten them yet, but probably will someday. Anybody else?
http://www.toribootlegs.com
I haven't gotten them yet, but probably will someday. Anybody else?
I will eventually, but I've been reminded that I'm poor so I'll now spend less on cds and even less on live cds, you know? i already have the real songs no rush to get the live atm. It'll be around. But i do so look forward to hearing them. Still orbiting is blinkin' awesome, i just hope these live albums match up.
-You can''t stop my heart from turning inside out.